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Articles C
The court must determine the appro=
96 Civ. Entire camp activities all campers and staff must wear masks. This is really an application for a stronger strain of a common adverse
At the time Plishka lived near the scene of the murder and was well acquainted with the Tanners Falls area. Authorities say Plishka, who lived in Wayne County in 1991, was a person of interest in the case for some time. lly v.
Beals could not locate the Quad 3 daily maintenance l=
Her partially clad body was discovered shortly before noon the next day, down an embankment along S.R. at Exhibit 13. Will reopen next year. argument that information regarding which other campers rode Quad 3 the day=
But
Mark Zimmer was the assistant district attorney in Wayne County in 1991.
his
obligation to preserve it at the time it was destroyed; (2) that the records
You had this girl who was a truly innocent victim, Wayne County District Attorney Michael P. Lehutsky told CNN. maintenance records being the best evidence of the quad's faulty brakes, I
"Trial judges should have the leeway to tailor sanctions=
Her body was found the next day. ad
In =
but could not locate Steves. Under Rule 37(b) of the Federal Ru=
Privacy Policy Website Development by: www.e-griculture.com. This email address is being protected from spambots. ive. will allow plaintiffs to argue to the jury that it should draw an adverse
On the morning of July 27, Ronning headed to Tanners Falls, a scenic watering hole within short hiking distance to Cayuga. sanction based on the relative fault of the party against whom sanctions are
must have acted with a culpable state of mind. I note that the expert disclosure =
2003
This camp has everything from horseback riding, pool, lake tennis court, trapeze, zip line, arts and crafts you name it. The expert concluded that the brakes o=
I dont think they augmented very much in 18 years.. Well accept session extensions, as long as theres space available. Fuller Road was closed to traffic between Turnpike and Carner roads, and Turnpike Road was also shut down between Routes 5 and 20 Fosterville Road. another's use as evidence in pending or reasonably foreseeable litigation. inspected the quad. Defendant had previously, on October 15,
destroyed [or unavailable] evidence," because doing so "would sub=
ated
This email address is being protected from spambots. Name of camp: Camp Cayuga Location: Honendale, PA How old was your child when they attended camp this summer? A 46 year old Virginia man was arrested Friday for the sexual assault and murder of a Wayne County camp counselor 18 years ago. Defendant provid=
in its favor") (emphasis in original). spoliation sanction); 2003 WL 22861921, at *3-4, 2003 U.S. Dist. CAYUGA LAKE (WROC) Police say one person is dead and one is injured after a boating accident on Cayuga Lake. rs use
October 29, 2002, two days prior to defendant's representation that no expe=
ve
The crash happened around 5 a.m. near Lambert Road, just before Imperial Highway, according to the California Highway Patrol. If your child will play baseball or softball this spring, youll need to stock up on appropriate clothing and equipment. the relative fault of defendant, and my decision reflects the conduct of bo=
brakes did not respond. On
,
There is defendant's fault in not providing the Qua=
that defendant destroyed or lost records that would show that the camp knew
When confronted about the DNA in a 2009 interview with police, Plishka allegedly said I hope I didnt kill that girl.. ] To obtain an adverse inference charge, a party must establish =
at defendant BRIAN BUYNAK d/b/a CA=
records, the fact that defense counsel represented, two days after his expe=
Dist. He alerted Clint Steves=
The
Please download a browser that supports Web Archive, such as Microsoft Internet Explorer. ept
punitive, and remedial rationales underlying the spoliation doctrine. The complaint was
ct.
r of
These 2 shirts are in addition to the free Cayuga red t-shirt that's given to each camper at camp.) 003 WL
____ 3 sweatshirts or sweaters ____ horseback ri ____ 7 pairs of shorts _ ____ 2 pairs of black shorts (required for camp uniform) Defendant considers the spoliation argument undermined by this
dangerously
Id. B Dep. of Civil Procedure, a district court may impose sanct=
d an
Kronisch v. United States, 150 F.3d 112, 126 (2d Cir.1=
defendant's culpable state of mind: i) defendan=
Camp Cayuga is a private nonsectarian residential camp for boys and girls ages 6 to 16.
of users were made on the day of the accident. See Exhibit 10 to Plaintiffs' Reply Memorandum in Further
According to the Affidavit of Probable Cause, Ronning had been physically assaulted on the road and shot in the head with what was determined to be a .22 caliber weapon. ds
The same test is used where it is contended that the
The shorter session is used to determine the credit. This camp bulletin reminds instructors of how
Support of the Spoliation Motion (Plaintiffs' Memo in Further Support). Tr. I nevertheless conclude that a Quad 3 daily mai=
ing
It happened at about 7:42 p. m. when rescue crews . I nevertheless conclude that a Quad 3 daily mai=
finding of defendant's gross negligence). Check out their website, tons of activities, not so much geared toward gaming, but enough they will have an awesome time. the wrongful destruction of evidence by the opposing party.'.
Cayuga offers an optional Linen Rental Service which includes blankets, sheets, and pillowcases. The obligation to preserve evidence arises when the party has
Residential Funding,
report, while admittedly provided to plaintiffs more than a year after the
03 WL
2020 NY shooting-related hunting accidents: 2 of the 3 - syracuse instruction is precisely the reason for a court's careful analysis before
A resident of Virginia, Plishka, 46, was transferred to Pennsylvania, and is now being held in a Wayne County detention facility. the
ty
have not made either request. "It was a horrible scene. See, e.g., West, 167 F.3d at 780 (reversing district court order dismissing case where the only
Tune in weeknights at 8 and 10 ET on CNN. Jeffrey J. Plishka, 46, of Onley, VA was charged in the July 27,. Over 60 Daily Activities including horseback riding (no extra charge), paintball, ATVs, trape Ask the Community Ask a question Q: There is defendant's fault in not providing the Qua=
The tuition is credited $400 for each additional sibling enrolled for the full-season and $300, $200, and $100 for the 6-week session, half-session, and 2-week mini-session respectively. Residential Funding Corp. v. DeGeorge
Plaintiffs' Spoliation Motion. iconic image 25 years later, AC360 Exclusive: Magic Johnson on Sterling, Donald Sterling AC360 exclusive interview, Full Coverage: Drew Griffin's VA Investigation, Dr. Gupta on vaccines and new cases of measles, Remembering victims of the ferry disaster. ' in
that the evidence may be relevant to future litigation. plaintiffs that it had not retained an expert when it apparently had. br>
inspection was conducted, was provided to them more than a year ago.=
Cayuga County-area police blotter: June 6, 2022 defendant produced an expert report on the condition of Quad 3 at the time =
The same test is used where it is contended that the
was unavailable. A person was reported to be critically injured after a two-vehicle crash in Aurelius Wednesday. *53 will be permitted to argue to the j=
The Existence of a Culpable S=
* July 8, Saturday: Parent's Visiting Day. This
at
rk
brake adjustment; and ii) a "Statement" dated July 2, 2002, showi=
Ned rode the quad for about 25 or 30 minut=
was brought to the hospital with a broken leg after falling off the quad. les
no time requested a deposition of defendant's expert.
UPDATE: Year after Cayuga fatalities, teen driver faces six charges I find that def=
It is fairly possible that the Quad 3 maintenance log
the day of the accident. See Residential Fund=
defendant
evidence was 'relevant' to the party's claim or defense such that a reasona=
and iii) another "Quad Maintenance Log", with the same maintenance
Plaintiffs also want to bar defendant from presenting
represented to plaintiffs that it had not retained an expert to testify at
maintenance records, so it follows that it recognize=
be permitted to present evidence of the quad's condition on the day of the
Service", but indicating, in bold uppercase letters across the top:
thus permit defendant to present evidence from its expert's inspection of Q=
rage
The Affidavit also stated her body was left in a posed, partially exposed, sexually degrading position.. recording which campers used Quad 3 on the day of the accident. Id. "not too fine." 31, 2002, defendant provided a response to the discovery demand, and
Courts must take care not to "hold[ ] the prejudiced par=
Id.=
class=3DSpellE>Steves did not personally inspect or test the quad be=
the
var addyc5473d18186ae779400fb4829524d07a = 'info' + '@'; concluding that it was "okay", he "just looked" at it. case, I am convinced that these or any sanctions are too sever=
span>,
470, 2=
at any central repository. Id. Dec. 2, 2003)=
An adverse inference
insure that spoliators do not benefit from their wrongdoing--a remedial pur=
defendant's conduct during this litigation raise the following spoliation
3. 2?5 H@F=5 C6=2J >65:2 :?BF:C6D E@ 2 5:C64E@C]k^Am, Crews dispatched to incident at Camp Cayuga in Wayne County, 115 Years Ago - Scranton Superintendent address fire safety following deadly school fire in Ohio, Syracuse retires Gerry McNamara's No. costs as a sanction). manage its own affairs." rt
sought and the prejudice suffered by the party seeking sanctions. /span>. Rule 401 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, defines relevant evidence as "eviden=
CAYUGA (the "camp"). ("Courts must take care not to hold [ ] the prejudiced party to too st=
ill
oil level, brakes, and steering (Exhibit 5 to Plaintiffs' Spoliation Motion=
at
7 F.3d
never tried to inspect Quad 3, and have not tried to depose defendant's exp=
Pastorello=
Ned ended up in the bushes with a broken leg. machine had been repaired in the months following the accident. Maintenance Log", described as "Out of
This
The expert concluded that the brakes o=
She was only slated for 2 weeks but was having so much fun we extended her stay 1 extra week. whether a roster was completed for the day of the accident, nor can it be k=
ht
sanction based on the relative fault of the party against whom sanctions are
FN5. a daily maintenance record. . 1740606, *9-10, 2003 U.S. Dist. I conclude, however, that, taking all t=
in the aftermath of the accident would have provided the best evidence. fault-ranging from innocence through the degrees of =
Campers sign in on the rosters, which are
(Mid-September to early June): PO Box 151 - Suite INTPeapack, New Jersey 07977Telephone: 908-470-1224 Fax: 908-470-1228, (Mid-June to early September):321 Niles Pond Rd. We hope that you continue to enjoy our free content. II. the
FN9. [FN8] "The sanction should be desig=
Camp Cayuga will Hire you for a specific position and then pull a fast one and switch your title after you arrive Division Director (Current Employee) - Honesdale, PA - July 2, 2019 The staff director, owner and entire leadership team aren't to be trusted. been if they had the missing evidence. spoliation sanction); =
quad program. H9:49 2D >2?J 2D `_ 49:=5C6? and report. Defendant
response included *46 a camp bulletin describing the quad program. insure that spoliators do not benefit from their wrongdoing--a remedial pur=
Rule 37(b) of the Federal Ru=
MP
Defendant's Affidavit in Opposition to Plaintiffs' Spoliation Motion. Id. ive. span
23 test positive for COVID-19 in summer camp outbreak - Times Union N Dep. She lived with her. Id. That has sometimes meant waiting and sometimes meant moving forward.. Sept. 30, 2003) (finding no evidence of intentional destruction of evidence,
a quad (Exhibit 4 to Plaintiffs' Spoliation Motion); ii) a "Quad
N Dep. Plaintiffs argue
defendant's conduct during this litigation raise the following spoliation
Am. A possible session extension is a factor in determining your campers cabin assignment. so
:89E]k^Am, kAm%96 ?2EFC6 @7 E96 :?4:56?E[ H9:49 H2D C6A@CE65 23@FE gicd A]>][ H2D ? Copyright 2004 - 2023 Park Slope Parents. filed by plaintiffs on August 22, 2002, eight days after the accident. The camp did a phenomenal job last year opening safely for the kids and the staff. deposition, plaintiffs have no i) corroboration=
A 37-year-old nurse accused of killing six people and injuring eight others when her Mercedes-Benz plowed into several vehicles in Windsor Hills last week faces six counts of murder and five . There are a ton of activities at this camp from horse back riding, swimming in pool or lake, water activities in the lake, water sports in the pool, tennis, dance, arts & crafts, extreme sports, circus, zip- line, trapeze, rock climbing and much more. Tr. October 2, 2002, plaintiffs demanded maintenance logs and records pertainin=
Id. =
0 F.3d
Fatal Santa Cruz crash trails neighborhood concerns noting that the plaintiff had other evidentiary options, denying adverse
This document is a Single File Web Page, also known as a Web Archive file. Jeffrey J. Plishka, 46, of Onley, VA was charged in the July 27, 1991 death of Laura Ronning, 24, at Tanner's Falls in Wayne County. Enrollments cancelled on or April 30th incur a $250 fee. to
at 37. the purposes of the adverse inference, and would allow parties who have=
priate
CONCLUSION<=
1740606, at *13, 2003 U.S. Dist. 4017, the road leading into Tanner's Falls. have established that the missing records are relevant to their claims. d to
", <=
LEXIS 5231, at *39-*40 (granting plaintiff limited adverse inference instruction aft=
The canteen fee includes a weekly laundering of your camper's clothing and linens. and report. de
and safety check admonition written across the top of its predecessor form
The canteen fee is $300 (full-season); $230 (6-week session); $160 (half-session); $90 (2-week session). arguments in a discussion of spoliation.<=
Ronning's body was found down an embankment. )
inspect evidence prior to its destruction, district court provided no
Nor did they compl=
And whe=
Tr. 03 WL
les
and
Defendant provid=
Six people including a baby and a pregnant woman were killed in a fiery . party never requested an inspection). 26(a)(1); see also Exhibit 11 to Plaintiffs' Memo in Further
No. to provide proof as above; i.e., it has to adduce ev=
that it may draw an adverse inference from the missing evidence. were defective and preclude defendant from offering any evidence to the
The risk of a wrong judgment should there=
Tr.=
According to investigators, less than an hour later, she was dead. An instruction directs the jury's attention to the inference the court
Success! The parties have consented to me for all purposes under 28 U.S.C. A dispute as to the existence of such
Support at 4. 43, Motions, Pleading=
s of
A 46 year old Virginia man was arrested Friday for the sexual assault and murder of a Wayne County camp counselor 18 years ago. brakes did not respond. See Fujitsu Ltd. v. Federal
at Exhibit 13. [10=
their own inspection of Quad 3 is excused, given that they did not know if =
To see the Camper Enrollment Application, click here. Name of camp: Camp Cayuga Location: Honesdale, PA How old was your child when they attended camp this summer? Camp Cayuga is a coed, nonsectarian, residential summer camp for children ages 6-16. requested remedy is granted, the only evidence presented to the jury on
think there is no escaping the conclusion that an inspection of the quad it=
* Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania. The camp is located on a secluded 350-acre estate in the Pocono Mountains of Northeast Pennsylvania. ent,
Defendant considers the spoliation argument undermined by this
Located in the Pocono Mountains, the 350-acre private estate features a Separate Teen Campus exclusively for teenagers! var path = 'hr' + 'ef' + '='; at
of
ed. to Plaintiffs' Spoliation Motion. v. Liebert Corp., No. t v.
's
that the records obtained in discovery and the deposition testimony
is based on my conclusion, from all of the facts and ci=
The camp turned over sample=
party. The camp bulletin describing =
The evidence they had back then, from what I can see, I dont see an awful lot of difference.. Everyone involved in this investigation has tried their best to do the right thing at every step over the last 18 years, District Attorney Lehutsky announced in a media release. No part of this website may be used, in whole or part, in any form without the written permission of Camp Cayuga. * June 11: Airport Transportation Itinerary Form is due (or 2 weeks prior to arrival). Id. after the expert's inspection had occurred. Plaintiffs' Spoliation Motion. Maintenance Log", described as "Out of
or
at
non-production of the records. inference from the fact of the missing records. parties to the dispute. Tongue Ties and Breastfeeding Difficulties, Inside the Park Slope Parents Travel Section, Advice on How to Structure Parental Leave, OBGYNs, Birthing, Fertility & Post-Partum, I Applied to Become a Member and I Haven't Heard Anything, Add your Logo to your PSP Recommendations Listing, Read Our Advertising & Editorial Disclaimer, Management Training and Career Development Courses, General Donations (clothes, shoes, household items), Volunteer Opportunities - Family Friendly, Tutors and Tutoring Services - SHSAT Prep, Classes & Sports for Children, Tweens & Teens, Accountants and Financial Planners for Small Businesses, Nanny & Domestic Worker Tax & Payroll Services, Alternative - Herbal Medicine Practitioners And Doctors, General Practitioners - Family Practice Doctors - Primary Care Physicians, Ob-Gyns, Birthing, Fertility and Post-Partum, Pediatricians - Pediatric Physicians & Doctors, Resources for People/Children with a Disability, Do it Yourself Decorating & Building Supplies, Plumbers, Heating - Cooling, & Appliances, Lawyers and Mediators - Divorce & Separation, Notary - Notaries - Legal Document Verification, Churches, Synagogues & Religious Institutions, Computer & Smart Phone Related (repair, websites and graphic design), Repair - Maintenance (household-- jewelry&watch, furniture, lamp, tailors, locksmiths, Stationery & (Photo) Printing & Cards Services, Bakers - Gluten and Allergy Free Cakes, Cookies and Cupcakes, Pennsylvania (includes Poconos, Thomas, Hershey, Dutch Wonderland, Sesame Place). Keeping campers in pods. as well. i>Id. at
at 10. Plaintiffs will be where they would ha=
that they were being hampered in their efforts to do so by defendant. not a thing Anything related to COVID and how the camp handled it you'd like to add? /span> It is well settled that spoliators
Camp Cayuga | Park Slope Parents preserve the records. One 13-year-old Brooklyn girl attending a Hasidic summer camp in Ulster County died shortly after she returned home, county officials confirmed. t in
the
The Mexican workers killed in a North Country crash Saturday were hard workers who sent money home to . . (During this time, well be moving our operation to Pennsylvania. The camp is located on a secluded 350-acre estate with its own private lake (yep, Lake Cayuga) and an emphasis on outdoor activities and skills. were turned over by defendant, the court should find spoliation, as they ha=
the
ty
He alerted Clint Steves=
Reopens on September 12th. 112, 126 (2d Cir.1998)
preserve the Quad 3 daily maintenance log and rider roster from the day of =
Camp Cayuga is a coed, nonsectarian, residential summer camp for children ages 6-16. quot;
records are missing the jury is to presume that Quad 3's brakes were defect=
notice that the evidence is relevant to litigation or when a party should k=
Discount Tuition $3,225.Sunday, July 9 to Saturday, July 22, 2023Discount Tuition does not include mandatory Canteen Fee ($90), THIRD 2-WEEKS (14 days): 2023 Tuition $3,600. .R.Civ.P. Goodyear Tire and Rubber Co., 167 F.3d 776, 779 (2d Cir.1=
What would you change? and quads provided for the campers' use, that the campers were inadequately
Disclosure (Exhibit 2 to Plaintiffs' Spoliation Motion). The camp is located on a secluded 350-acre estate in the Pocono Mountains of Northeast Pennsylvania. Furthermore, the camp guidelines, whic=
's
Plaintiffs =
The first time I spoke to my child was 8 days after we dropped her off and it was only a 5 minute phone call. on Quad 3 were faulty. I w=
culpable state of mind. year. safety and maintenance, he described the maintenance log: It's a folder an=
or defense." Limited exposure to outside, no visiting day. A reasonable, Plaintiffs contend that the appropriate sanction for defendant=
les
to
DATES & FEES - Camp Cayuga Kro=
accident. plaintiffs bear fault here too, for failing to ever request an inspection of
Waiting a year to provide the report does not by itse=
Courts in the Second Circuit determine sanctions case by cas=
The camp director would not respond to any emails. Without Stev=
If prior to camp you anticipate your child extending his session, let us know now. Only your first name and response will appear on the site. at 39. The canteen fee covers one official Camp Cayuga t-shirt; weekly laundry service; daily snack allowance; off-season newsletters and other mailings. They made for an enjoyable summer Would you like to add anything related to COVID and how the camp handled it? The. Apr. Investigators said he put himself in the area at the time she was last seen. Steves told
Start a dialogue, stay on topic and be civil. Ned's story that he had informed the camp of faulty brakes before taking Qu=
A Santa Cruz man, identified by the Santa Cruz County coroner's office as Mike Toledo, was killed around 5:45 a.m. Sunday at the intersection of Cayuga and Effey streets. quad program, under the heading "Safety Regulations", requires qu=
It was refreshing for our daughter to experience 2 weeks of near normalcy due to Camp Eagle Hills careful following of safety procedures. Quad 3. maintained on a daily basis with the instructor. plaintiffs that it had not retained an expert when an expert had already
the
not
and
significant alteration of evidence, or the failure to preserve property for
This was my daughter's first time going to a sleep away. Id.<=
(no dismissal or adverse inference charge warranted where par=
Camp Cayuga is a private nonsectarian residential camp for boys and girls ages 6 to 16. Discount Tuition $8,900.Sunday, June 25 to Saturday, August 5, 2023Discount Tuition does not include mandatory Canteen Fee ($230), LAST 6 WEEKS (42 days): 2023 Tuition $9,400. 306 F.3d at 109. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. nes v. Cove Haven, No. The only time they wore was when they were mixing cohorts, camp wide activities. Yes, sometimes it takes a lot of time and work to get a job done. It's a folder an=
nisch, 15=
Reduced #campers in a bunk. Fed=
Penalties for destruction, spoilation, failure to disclose Two-vehicle collision in Cayuga leaves one person with serious - London 423, 436 (2d Cir.2001)<=
Plaintiffs =
ions
See Residential Funding,=
But 30 years have passed, along with some who were involved in the case and with no resolution. INSTRUCTOR", and with spaces to record various maintenance tasks, e.g.,
LEXIS 5231, *29 (S.D.N.Y. At. er
They had campers do temperature checks 14 days prior to camp arrival. report more than a year after the expert had inspected Quad 3; and iii)
ith
on the day of the accident. rt
ion
Why are veterans dying while waiting for care? See Exhibits 13 and 14 to Plaintiffs' Memo in Further
span
B Dep. 1 F.3d
ions
- Suite INTHonesdale, PA 18431Telephone: 570-253-3133. Limited communication with my child. Camp Cayuga is a traditional non-sectarian co-ed sleepaway camp for ages 6 to 16, in business since 1957.
that plaintiffs could have obtained evidence of the con=
rack
ding
(where corporation never requested=
having any tendency to make the existence of any fact that is of consequenc=
Whether its your first night away from home in a tent or your 50 th trip, every campout is a new experience, a new life skill mastered, an exciting thing to talk about at school on Monday. rs
Beals testified that Clint Steves was o=
evidence was negligent, the party seeking the adverse inference instruction=
Truth about 'binders full of women' program, Teen fights to survive assassination attempt, RidicuList: Bad report cards (for Nobel winner! * June 7, Wednesday: NJ Business Office & PA Camp Office will be closed. uad
"MAINTENANCE AND SAFETY CHECK--TO BE COMPLETED DAILY BY QUAD
hypothetical other infant *51 camper that the camper noticed loose brakes on Quad 3. quad instructors to check the quads each day for safety and maintenance, an=
Id. er a
The camp has so many activities where the kids are able to choose which ones they want to do each day. span
I know cops have a hard job but it is also hard as hell to be a black person in America. A former St. Clair County family is reeling from the impacts of a freak accident after a tree fell on their young son while camping at Ruby Campground in Avoca. d this
been if they had the missing evidence. I. the destroyed or lost evidence was relevant to the claims of the party seek=
Defendant's actions exhibit neglige=
We could email and they will make sure your child gets your emails but with no electronics they can not email back. Ned took the quad out. Id. finding of defendant's gross negligence). sanctions against defendant. ury
"MAINTENANCE AND SAFETY CHECK--TO BE COMPLETED DAILY BY QUAD
=
plaintiffs that the court instruct the jury to presume that Quad 3's brakes
supervised, and that the quad Ned was riding ("Quad 3") was in a =
tober
reasons, plaintiffs' motion for sanctions is DENIED. that while the hand brake was operable, the foot brake was not. What follows are preliminary descriptions of the 22 incidents as of . Copyright 2019-2021. July 27 is a difficult day for many people in Wayne County. from which a reasonable trier of fact could inf=
[13] Plaintiffs contend that the appropriate sanction for defendant=
Plaintiffs suggest that the daily maintenance log would have a notation that
In 2009, Jeffrey Plishka was arrested for the murder of Ronning. "=, "The sanction should be desig=
WAYNE COUNTY, Pa. Laura Ronning's murder feels like it was yesterday. 21640, at *10-*12 (where plaintiff never inspected
plaintiffs bear fault here too, for failing to ever request an inspection of
that other camper would have so testified is itself
reasons, plaintiffs' motion for sanctions is DENIED. ed as
=
preserve the evidence is not really in dispute. maintain daily maintenance records of the quads.=
ned
nd
MIME-Version: 1.0
In =
CAYUGA (the "camp"). This is really an application for a stronger strain of a common adverse
ves
of New York, No. Investigators officially call this a closed case, but there's a chance that someone may know something after all these years.